[Tanel]

[anubis]

Automaks tuleb nagunii.

Igasuguseid makse tuleb meil varsti, poliitikud hoolitsevad selle-eest suure pühendumusega hetkel.

[KillFrenzy]

Kui teha nüüd üks väga robustne puusalt arvutus.

Elektriauto 20kkm @ 20kWh/100km = 3.6€ aastas
Bensuauto 20kkm @ 7L/100km = 788€ aastas

Vahe on 219 korda.

2019 kütusekatsiisi laekumine 638 200 000€

219 korda vähem on 2 914 000€

Kui homme kõik hakkavad elektriautoga sõitma on puudu 635 286 000€

[Tanel]

KillFrenzy,

[somnambuul]

Elektriauto kulu komakohaga mööda pole pannud?

E: selge, aint aktsiisi numbrid, siis sobib.

[KillFrenzy]

somnambuul, et 2kWh või 200kWh 100km?

3.6€ ja 788€ on aastane aktsiis, kui seda silmas pidasid.

[rmc]

[KillFrenzy]

rmc, kedagi ei koti mida sinu arvates aktsiis tähendab või mis selle mõte peaks olema.

Selle asja nimi olgu kasvõi on jüri tordifond.

Loeb ainult üks asi, see on number exceli tabelis aasta lõpus.

[rmc]

KillFrenzy, asi ei ole minu arvamuses, vaid reaalsuses. Aktsiise makstakse konkreetsete põhjuste tõttu, mitte selleks, et aktsiisi all olevat rohkem tarbima panna.
Teedeehitus kütuseaktsiisist laekuva eest on kütuseaktsiisi mõttega täiesti äraspidine.

Exceliprobleem laheneb teede-/sõidukimaksuga. Selles kogu teema sisu ongi. Arusaamatu, miks iga kord sama jaur on :]

[KillFrenzy]

[sakinaga]

Kui makse võrrelda, siis tuleks muidugi KM-i ka arvesse võtta mõlemal juhul. Sel juhul vahe kahaneb märkimisväärselt.

Lõpuks peab elektriauto olema vähemalt sama kulukas, ilmselt isegi kulukam, et vältida liigset autostumist. Ehk siis maksud on vältimatud.

[KillFrenzy]

sakinaga, väga hea tähelepanek.

Lisaks tuleb ka aktsiisi pealt käibemaksu maksta.

Ehk 0.563€ bensuliitri pealt maksab eratarbijale tegelikult 0.6756€

[Tanel]

KM suurus kütuseaktsiisilt ja elektriaktsiisilt väga erinev absoluutnumbrites.
Täiesti mõttetu võrdlus IMO.

[sakinaga]

[KillFrenzy]

Tanel, lisaks on elekter ka odavam kui bensiin, sellevõrra laekub ka vähem KM.

[Tanel]

Jah, suhtarvuliselt samad, aga ma räägin numbrite suurusest, et täiesti erinevad summad.

[rmc]

KillFrenzy, äkki saab, et sa ei hakka tõmblema, vaid räägid asjast?

Sellel kõigel ei ole ju tegelikkuses vahet, mida te räägite. Fakt on, et aktsiis on eriotstarbeline maks, mis ei ole teedeehituseks ja nende hoolduseks ideeliselt. See, et valitsejad seda nii kasutavad on sisuliselt ogar.
Selge on see, et sõidukite-/teedemaks peab olema ja see peab olema proportsionaalne, et kulud kaetud saaks.

[sakinaga]

[KillFrenzy]

[rmc]

Mis on aktsiisi kui erimaksu mõte?

[somnambuul]

Siis tuleb transpordi elektrile eraldi aktsiis, nagu gaasil hetkel. Kuidas kogutakse, pole õrna aimugi.

[anubis]

ICE puhul on kütuseaktsiis tegelikult looduse reostamise eest võetav maks mida kulutatakse sihtotstarbetult.

Samamoodi võiks küsida, et kuhu kadus heinamüüjate tegevuse pealt makstav tulumaks siis, kui ICE hobutranspordi välja vahetas.

[sakinaga]

Minu arvates on naiivne arvata, et elektriautode tarbimist maksustama ei hakata samal või kõrgemal määral kui praegu sisepõlemismootoriga autosid maksustatakse. See on vältimatu.

[rmc]

sakinaga, kes seda arvanud pole, et ICE-sõidukite vähenemisega peab suurenema rahahulk, mida kogutakse teiste sõidukite omanikelt/kasutajatelt?

[anubis]

Tulevad teemaksud, pigem.

[rmc]

Tee- ja/või sõidukimaksud, jah - igati loogiline ning iga kord käesolevast teemast rääkides ka üheselt selge olnud.

[arnis]

[Tanel]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/afdhelaziz/2020/11/19/why-lightyear-is-the-most-game-changing-car-company-on-the-planet/

[Tanel]

https://drivetribe.com/p/another-tesla-loses-its-roof-on-azFgn16VSVOBLPxeO8Dapg

[KillFrenzy]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a34465088/tesla-china-recall-model-s-model-x-suspensions/

In China, Tesla is recalling 29,193 Model S and Model X vehicles that were made in the United States, citing suspension issues that could lead to an accident.

[rmc]

EV-de vastase lobi tekst pole veel siia jõudnud, panen koos debunkinguga:
BS biased tekst: "Electric cars only greener than petrol after 50,000 miles" https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/electric-cars-have-to-do-50-000-miles-before-they-are-greener-than-fossil-fuel-vehicles-8hb5m0dm7
Debunking: https://twitter.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1332464525602410498
Tekst spoileris, kes eraldi navigeerida ei viitsi:

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1332464525602410498
"New 'study' claims it takes 48k miles for electric vehicles to emit less CO2 than gasoline cars.

But it's just a misleading brochure.
Reality is closer 16k miles.

UK media including @thetimes
where mislead by this carmaker-paid attack on @BorisJohnson
's green plans. (thread)

About me:

I research electric vehicles at @TUeindhoven
and direct http://NEONresearch.nl.

Comparing CO2 emissions of electric vehicles and combustion cars is my specialty.

My paper describing common errors: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435119302715

A recent report:https://www.avere.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/englisch_Studie-EAuto-versus-Verbrenner_CO2.pdf

Here is @thetimes
@GraemePaton
reporting on 'a study commissioned by vehicle and technology companies' where 'researchers recorded results'.
https://thetimes.co.uk/article/electric-cars-have-to-do-50-000-miles-before-they-are-greener-than-fossil-fuel-vehicles-8hb5m0dm7

And there's literally dozens of others who fell for this.

There were no 'researchers' involved in this 'study' as far as I can see and there are no original 'recorded results'.
https://dropbox.com/s/4lh5prkwzn490ra/Decarbonising%20transport.pdf?dl=0

It looks like some lobbyists and a PR firm produced a brochure for their list of sponsors: a who's who of anti-EV organisations.

The brochure goes all out to bamboozle with marketing speak but there's roughly three types of numerical misdirection:

1) Combustion engine emissions
2) Electric vehicle emissions
3) Biofuel emissions

The report underestimates combustion engine emissions ~50% by substituting reality with laboratory tests and forgetting fuel production.

First the laboratory tests. The table from the brochure looks fine but the graph over time from the source is going up. What's happening?

Well, the tests are going up because from 2017 on the laboratory test became more realistic.

Why? Because after #dieselgate the EU finally could not conceal anymore that the brochure that car buyers and politicians use is around 40% rosier than reality.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360128516300442#fig0002

But even the new (WLTP) test is still ~20% lower than reality.

And then you have to account for fuel production which adds ~25-30% to combustion engine emissions.

So it's not 137.7 g/km but ~138*1.2*1.25=~207 g/km.
https://twitter.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1229108129301921792

Now we can compare with electric vehicles.
The 'study' copies a study of ONE car and generalizes this to ALL electric vehicles by boldly claiming it takes 78k km (48k miles) before an electric vehicle emits less CO2.
A claim e.g @thetimes
repeated.
https://www.polestar.com/dato-assets/11286/1600176185-20200915polestarlcafinala.pdf

This ONE study compares a Polestar electric vehicle with a combustion car from parent company Volvo.

But the WLTP emissions from the Volvo XC40 are estimated at 195 g/km when reality is 295 km: 45% more!

I established this using the EPA rating for the Volvo XC40.

Producing the battery of the electric vehicle emits 7 tonnes of CO2 (95 kg CO2/kWh battery) which is normal for a battery currently manufactured in China.

But that building the rest of the electric car emits 3 tonnes more is not normal because it's drivetrain is much lighter.

Some sleuthing by a tweep gave us the best possible explanation: although the Polestar and the XC40 use the same chassis they used the emissions of the factory in Belgium for the XC40 and China for the Polestar.

To compare like with like I take an XC40 also build in China.

Finally: this is an LCA so you must calculate all emissions OVER THE LIFETIME of the vehicle. That also means taking the electricity mix over the lifetime.
(The brochure uses the same approach for biofuels.)

Average UK mix over the lifetime is ~100 g/kWh.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/794590/updated-energy-and-emissions-projections-2018.pdf

The result is this corrected graph:

1) Both cars produced in same Chinese factory: line Volvo start bit higher.

2) Realistic fuel use: line Volvo steeper.

3) UK electricity mix (cleaner than EU!) over lifetime: pretty flat line Polestar.

=> Break even from 78k km to 25k km.

Finally some words on biofuels. The report touts them as almost emission free but their source (https://concawe.eu/wp-content/uploads/jec_wtw_v5_121213_final.pdf) warns it omits land use change.

What does that mean?

It means we are again ignoring reality to protect business interests.

Land use change is basically simple: if I use land to produce biofuel instead of food, someone else on this world will convert a patch of nature into land for food. That negates most of my imagined reduction in carbon emissions and threatens biodiversity.
https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/files/documents/ecofys_methodologies_for_low_iluc_risk_biofuels_for_publication.pdf

Bottom line: biofuels from waste are great but limited and should be reserved for e.g. long distance flying and sailing. Biofuels that compete with food or nature often emit more CO2 and are driving deforestation worldwide.
https://www.transportenvironment.org/what-we-do/biofuels

Oh and then there's the new eFuels that are now touted as a way to keep the combustion engine alive. Sorry.

eFuels require 5-6x more windmills or solar panels to produce than electric vehicles. It's a dead end for road transport. Sorry lobbyists.
https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/e-fuels-too-inefficient-and-expensive-cars-and-trucks-may-be-part-aviations-climate-solution-%E2%80%93

So if you think selling combustion engines is more important than finding a job that helps us to combat climate change, that's your choice. But please stop spreading FUD.

And dear journalists: please be less gullible.

For starters I fixed the front page of the brochure."

Forbes-is ka debunking:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2020/11/28/electric-vehicles-are-a-silver-bullet-for-zero-emissions--dont-believe-the-fossil-fuel-hype/ "In the last few days, a report has been hitting the headlines in the UK about the carbon footprint of producing EVs. The main story is that (mostly due to the batteries) the manufacture of an electric vehicle means that it will need to drive 50,000 miles before an equivalent fossil fuel car becomes less green. This is not a complete lie – the carbon footprint of EV manufacture is (generally) higher than for fossil fuel cars at the moment. But leading on this headline figure obscures a lot of detail, and when you dig deeper, the motivations for the report behind it become more questionable."

[anubis]

Akud mida elektriautode energiasalvestuseks kasutatakse on sisuliselt 100% ümbertöödeldavad, sellest saab tulevikus suur äri. Ehituselt on elektriautod palju lihtsamalt ümbertöödeldavad kui ICE autod.

[rmc]

Jah & sellest räägiti ka Tesla Battery Day-l:

phpBB [media]

[KillFrenzy]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/raspberry-pi-hack-tesla-model-x

ComputerWeekly has reported that a Belgian PhD student has managed to bypass the security of a Tesla Model X using the Swiss Army Knife of hacker tools, a Raspberry Pi along with a modified key fob and a salvaged engine control unit (ECU). This vulnerability has forced Tesla to issue an over the air patch for its Model X vehicles.

[rmc]

https://electrek.co/2020/11/30/gm-cancels-deal-build-nikola-nkla-electric-hydrogen-pickup-truck-controversies/
"GM has dropped its plan to build the Nikola (NKLA) Badger electric/fuel cell pickup truck and take a stake in the controversial company.
However, GM will still supply Nikola with fuel cell hydrogen technology for its semi trucks."

https://electrek.co/2020/12/01/lucid-completes-electric-vehicle-factory-construction/
"Lucid Motors announced that it completed the first phase of construction at its EV factory in Arizona.
Eventually, they plan to produce up to 400,000 electric cars per year at the facility after future expansions."

https://electrek.co/2020/12/01/vw-ceo-reveals-mission-t-catch-up-with-tesla-faces-vote-of-confidence/
"Herbert Diess, the head of the Volkswagen group, has released a blog post discussing his effort to reform the giant automaker, including revealing “Mission T,” his plan to “catch up with Tesla.”"

https://electrek.co/2020/12/01/tesla-tsla-turns-cybertruck-reservation-holders-delivery-push/
"Tesla (TSLA) is trying to convince Cybertruck reservation holders to lease new Tesla vehicles now amid an important end-of-year delivery push."
"Furthermore, Tesla appears to have delayed the timeline of deliveries for the Cybertruck since people have previously associated the start of production in late 2021 with the start of deliveries, but these emails appear to point to deliveries not starting until 2022."

https://electrek.co/2020/12/01/elon-musk-tesla-focus-profits-tsla-email/
"In a new email to Tesla employees obtained by Electrek, CEO Elon Musk says that he wants the automaker to focus on profits and cost-saving.
If not, the CEO warns that Tesla’s stock (TSLA) could fall drastically."

[sakinaga]

Üllatus, Tesla on taas lubanud midagi, mida reaalselt lubatud ajaraamis tarnida ei suudeta.

[Tanel]

[HDvurle]

Niipalju siis Nikola veokitest.
https://arileht.delfi.ee/news/uudised/mees-kes-suutis-edukalt-lollitada-investoreid-ja-turgu-puhudes-veokite-tesla-vaartuse-fordistki-suuremaks?id=91888863

[Tanel]

https://enefitvolt.com/uudised/Haaberstis-avati-Eesti-esimene-kaht-elektriautot-korraga-laadiv-ulikiirlaadija

[Equinox]

Ülikiirlaadija @ 150kW Noh abiks muidugi, et midagi ikka ka Eestis tehakse.

[Tanel]

Link

[rmc]

Samm õiges suunas!
https://electrek.co/2020/12/04/tesla-releases-service-manuals-diagnostic-tools-more-free/
"Tesla is now giving access to service manuals, repair guides, diagnostic tools, and more for free."

https://electrek.co/2020/12/07/uk-opens-first-fully-electric-vehicle-service-station-powered-by-solar-today/ "UK opens first fully electric vehicle service station, powered by solar, today"
https://electrek.co/2020/12/08/egeb-ireland-phone-boxes-ev-chargers/ "Irish telecoms company Eir and EV charging network EasyGo will replace 180 phone boxes with EV rapid charge points. EasyGo will use DC rapid chargers developed by Australia-based Tritium."

[KillFrenzy]

[rmc]

Jah, "õigus parandada" vastu olemine on täiesti ogaralt idiootne...

[Tanel]

[KillFrenzy]

28kWh sajale?

[rmc]

Arusaamatu, miks pidanuks terve tripi ajal tee peal kiirlaadijaid kasutama, mitte alguses nt. kodus laadima ja edaspidi ööbides

[Anti112]

[sakinaga]

Kui tripile minna, siis sageli esimesed paar päeva on 1000-1500km/päevas, et sihtkohta jõuda, seal võib jah chillida ja airbnb's laadida. Omast kogemusest on diisel selle jaoks mõnus, korra päevas saab tankida.

[rmc]

Anti112, loe ikka ka, mida ma kirjutan. Kui pikad vahemaad korraga, siis muidugi kiirlaadijat vaja kasutada, ent seal kogu tripp kiirlaadijates, vähemalt osa saanuks neist maha võtta.
Võlukombel on dislapaak alguses täis, elektrikas vajab laadimist

sakinaga, jah, arusaadav, ent ikkagi tundub see "eksperiment" jabur.